Column melee across any bridge?

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Drex
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:13 pm
Location: Chico, California

Column melee across any bridge?

Post by Drex »

In a new Gettysburg scenario designed by Bill Peters(Relief of Williamsport), I had Paul's brigade make a demonstration in front of Hagerstown to keep the Rebs in place while I Corps cut off on a branch road to funkstown, on the way to relieve Williamsport. My opponent gauged what I was doing and decided to charge Paul. I went into column and headed back up the Pike but one of his units caught me across a bridge over a stream. He meleed me and lost so no big damage other than a disrupted unit with a lesser movement. I mentioned the convention of column attack only on bridges (over creek?) and in town hexes. He said that since it was a bridge (even though he could have crossed in line)he could do it. What is the accepted position on this?
General Drexel Ringbloom, AotS,Commanding

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dg4571
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Re: Column melee across any bridge?

Post by dg4571 »

I'm not a fan of column melee and try to limit its use in games to the events you mention. In this case he is technically correct and it is something the players need to workout ahead of time or reach an agreement on from this point forward.
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LG D. Groce
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VCorps
!st Division
5th Brigade
Drex
Posts: 162
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Re: Column melee across any bridge?

Post by Drex »

That's all very well and good but that assumes that you can anticipate every anomaly that occurs. In my 3 whole years of playing and reading the forums religously, I have yet to see this application. In every instance of using a column across a bridge, it was over a creek. A stream does not require a formation change, but my opponents excuse was he wanted to catch up to me so he did not change formation and attacked in column.
General Drexel Ringbloom, AotS,Commanding

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nsimms
AotC
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Re: Column melee across any bridge?

Post by nsimms »

Club rules allow meleeing in column anywhere (no restrictions on meleeing) and anytime (including at night), unless something different has been agreed upon by the opponents. If the two of you have not discussed a restriction upon meleeing in column then he is totally within his rights. Below are the club rules.

5.4 House Rules. Many officers prefer specific ‘house rules’ when they play. All house rules are optional and must be agreed to ahead of time by both players. The Club does not require that any optional rules (either house rules or those provided within the games) be used.

The house rules are:

5.1 Battlefield Conduct. The following rules should be followed in all club sanctioned games, unless there is prior agreement of all those engaged negating them.

5.1.1 Wagons will not be used to cut off enemy retreat.

5.1.2 Lone officers (that is, any number of officers not stacked with at least one cavalry, infantry, or artillery unit) will not be used in front of your lines as scouts to determine the position of enemy forces. Positioning any officers on high ground behind your lines to better view the battlefield, however, is perfectly acceptable.

5.1.3 Lone officers (that is, any number of officers not stacked with at least one cavalry, infantry, or artillery unit) will never be used to cut off an enemy retreat. (Sometimes it may seem your opponent has done this, but there may be an unseen enemy unit exerting a ZOC on the hex.)

5.1.4 Withdrawal of all (or a substantial portion of) forces from the battlefield, unless specified in the scenario as a victory condition, will cost the withdrawing player a 2-step reduction in the level of victory. Removal from the map of individual units, routed behind enemy lines by the game engine, is allowed. (This rule is waived in the case of campaign scenarios.)

5.1.5 Routed units will not be moved in such a manner as to cut off an enemy retreat deliberately by the player. Units moved by the computer are exempt from this restriction.

5.1.6 If conducive to a routed unit’s survival, the unit should be moved towards their own lines (except when such a move would violate item 5.1.5 above).

5.1.7 All club members will treat each other with courtesy.

5.1.8 Club games should be responded to in a timely manner. (“Timely manner” to be determined mutually by the players involved.)

5.1.8.1 If for some reason this cannot be done it is the duty of the player who cannot do it to inform his opponent of his inability. If this is not acceptable to the opponent then the player should either concede the game at the current level of victory or find a level of victory mutually agreeable to his opponent. In the absence of an agreement take a 2-step reduction in the level of victory currently enjoyed. (An early resignation – in writing – by one side is always scored as a Major Victory for the opposing side and a Major Defeat for the resigning side.)

5.1.8.2 If one player leaves the Club, becomes inactive, or simply stops responding for weeks at a time, the remaining player may treat the game as a Major Victory. It is normal protocol to first check with the superior officers of the opponent before declaring this type of victory.

5.2 Violations In the absence of prior agreement, should an officer believe his opponent has violated any of the sections of this code he should first address his concerns with his opponent.

5.2.1 If this fails to bring satisfaction, the offended officer should discreetly bring the apparent violation to the attention of his own AC (chain of command is to be bypassed in this instance), who will open negotiations with the AC of the offending officer.

5.2.2 Should the offending officer be found in violation of the code, an appropriate discipline will be determined by the two AC’s. At NO TIME will either the charge, the inquiry, or the results be made public knowledge.
Gen Ned Simms
1/1/XIV Corps/AotC
Blood 'n Guts hisself, a land lovin' pirate. Show me some arty tubes and we'll charge 'em.
Drex
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:13 pm
Location: Chico, California

Re: Column melee across any bridge?

Post by Drex »

In other words, the club rules do not prevent column melee. It is basically a convention that must be agreed upon. I think it should be in the rules since it is followed by 99% of the membership or at least all the guys I have played.
General Drexel Ringbloom, AotS,Commanding

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R. Matthews
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Re: Column melee across any bridge?

Post by R. Matthews »

1. This does not make sense to me:

"5.2 Violations In the absence of prior agreement, should an officer believe his opponent has violated any of the sections of this code he should first address his concerns with his opponent.

5.2.1 If this fails to bring satisfaction, the offended officer should discreetly bring the apparent violation to the attention of his own AC (chain of command is to be bypassed in this instance), who will open negotiations with the AC of the offending officer.

5.2.2 Should the offending officer be found in violation of the code, an appropriate discipline will be determined by the two AC’s. At NO TIME will either the charge, the inquiry, or the results be made public knowledge."

If all house rules require prior agreement, how can there be a violation in the absence of prior agreement?

2. Clearly the designers of the HPS games believed melees using troops in column was acceptable. In fact, I believe it actually happened in practice during the war.
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nsimms
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Re: Column melee across any bridge?

Post by nsimms »

I goofed in my original post when I said "The house rules are:" followed by club rule 5.1 Battlefield Conduct. I goofed because those are club rules, not house rules. I can't edit the post at this point.

The reason that the club rules state "Violations In the absence of prior agreement..." is because opponents are allowed to agree (would be a house rule) to not abide by any or all of the club rules and the club considers that fine as long as all opponents agree to it. Thus there could be violations of the club rules but if all had agreed to not follow those rules that were violated then there should be no concerns to address.

I'm with you on column melee. I don't like to play with any house rules that restrict column melee. There is of course the argument of "it is historical" and "it isn't historical" but besides that, it complicates the game too much for me. With my feeble mind, I like all of my games to be played with the same options and house rules because otherwise I appear to be incapable of remembering which options or rules that I agreed to when I boot up the next file that I'm ready to play. If a potential opponent and I can't agree on the options and house rules then it's a big club and each of us can find someone else to play that we're both happier with.
Gen Ned Simms
1/1/XIV Corps/AotC
Blood 'n Guts hisself, a land lovin' pirate. Show me some arty tubes and we'll charge 'em.
robert noftz
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Re: Column melee across any bridge?

Post by robert noftz »

i have always had a problem with one aspect of the rule in particular.......

when i am moving an infantry unit and it "runs into" an enemy unit while still in column, i attack while in column if the odds look good. is this then acceptable..??

bg robt noftz
3rd lt div
viiicorps
BG Robt Noftz
5/1/VIII AotS USA

"For God & Country"

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nsimms
AotC
Posts: 175
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Re: Column melee across any bridge?

Post by nsimms »

The game and the club allows you to melee in column at any time under any situation that you can dream up (there are game restrictions concerning the meleeing of mounted cavalry and possibly gunboats) unless you and your opponent have agreed to a house rule to restrict such attacks. The danger in the club today is that meleeing in column and night time attacks have been discussed in the forums and restrictions on them have been favored by some respected club members, so now a lot of people think that those restrictions are the rule instead of the exception (i.e. a house rule that must be established for each game or campaign). That's when tempers flare when you know better but your opponent doesn't (or vice versa). It never hurts to read the rules and be familiar with them, both to protect yourself and to help your opponent to protect themselves. After all we're here to have fun, not fuss (I'd much rather lose due to good generalship instead of misunderstanding a rule). The club rules on gaming just aren't that long so it isn't like having to follow the instructions to put your kids Xmas bike together. Now some of these house rules that people come up with can be much more complicated than they appear on the surface but as long as all opponents in the game agree to 'em then there isn't a thing wrong with them.
Gen Ned Simms
1/1/XIV Corps/AotC
Blood 'n Guts hisself, a land lovin' pirate. Show me some arty tubes and we'll charge 'em.
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